Posts by Make Lemonade

48

The Apostasy Within

by Ultimate Axiom in

in the latest watchtower (july 15, 2014, page 14, paragraph 10) it says; today, jehovahs people are not often confronted with apostasy within the congregation.

still, when exposed to unscriptural teachings, regardless of the source, we must decisively reject them.. so, not often, but occasionally jws are exposed to apostasy within the congregation, and they are instructed to decisively reject it.

as we all know, the vast majority of the apostasy they are exposed to comes from the governing body.. i am meeting up soon with an old friend from the 1970s who i havent seen for decades, who is still an active jw, and who would really like to hear what i think about things.

Make Lemonade

Since your friend has been an active witness since the 70s, he should remember chapter 25 in the "Revelation Its Grand Climax At Hand!"(2006) book. The "two witnesses" are discussed in chapter 25 of the above book.

Rev.11:3 And I will cause my two witnesses to prophesy a thousand two hundred and sixty days dressed in sackcloth.

Since Jehovah's Witnesses are not Prophets, according to their own words. They are not inspired, and need to make corrections about their teachings,1914 generation, Rutherford with 1925, and "Children". Jehovah's Witnesses do claim to be "Prophets". Meaning they talk about their interpretation of Bible prophecy and when it does not come true they receive "new light". So Prophet and "Prophet" are two differant meanings in Wt. world.

By their own words it is not scriptural to apply the "two witnesses" to Jehovah's Witnesses because they have not been a true prophet of God. You have to be accurate all the time to reach the catagory "true prophet of God".

126

This is my first post

by Make Lemonade in

i wanted to express appreciation to the members of this forum.

there are resources here that are deep.

like we heard from the stage, "what is your depth and breadth of bible knowledge?

Make Lemonade

One frustration of dealing with the legal system, is that each case has to stand on it's own, so to speak. You have to present reasoning specific to your case. What you know about other cases can not always be presented in your case. You could know testimony from the Australian hearings, Candace Conti, Menlo Park, and Compos cases. When you see contradictions in testimony it shows a legal strategy crafted for each individual case. Those are the rules that must be obeyed in court. However, an individual who has been exposed to this behavior is forced to see that something is wrong.

When you point out these "contradictions" to witnesses, one gets a varied, but essentially dismissive response. "When you are dealing with the world, you have to act like the world". "Theocratic warfare", " I am a lawyer by day and an elder at night", etc..

One goal being considered by me is to make a clear concise presentation that captures these contradicting positions and then ask a rhetorical question:

Is this the way that God's channel of comunication should conduct itself on a world wide basis?

84

Want to know why people accept evolution ?

by snare&racket in

jw
friends

do you have questions about or want to understand evolution?

it is a difficult concept to communicate and so if it is not explained well , it is understandable that we would dismiss it.. i sincerely want to talk with people who want to learn more or see what all the fuss is about.

we are all learning and increasing our knowledge all the time and it is good to go over facts with critical eye.. evolution we can discuss, looking at the foundational facts and evidence, one at a time for you to go and check, agree or disagree with and return.. no pressure to accept it, you can decide for yourself, also no mocking etc of what you have to say.. .

Make Lemonade

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/04/1004/100412100017.htm

Clovis hunter and gatherer culture thought to be 13,000 years ago. Ancient sites discovered in Arizona. I do not know the dating method used to determine this age yet. I have learned that the Carbon 14 method is believed to be accurate up to 50,000 years. So this is one specific culture that would exceed the age of Adam.

35

Reverse Witnessing - Will NEVER work!

by MissConfused in

its been a while since i spoke up.

after a lot of 'tactful' questioning, i have come under the conclusion that witnessing ttatt with dubs will never work.

there is nothing called reasoning with them.

Make Lemonade

84

Want to know why people accept evolution ?

by snare&racket in

jw
friends

do you have questions about or want to understand evolution?

it is a difficult concept to communicate and so if it is not explained well , it is understandable that we would dismiss it.. i sincerely want to talk with people who want to learn more or see what all the fuss is about.

we are all learning and increasing our knowledge all the time and it is good to go over facts with critical eye.. evolution we can discuss, looking at the foundational facts and evidence, one at a time for you to go and check, agree or disagree with and return.. no pressure to accept it, you can decide for yourself, also no mocking etc of what you have to say.. .

Make Lemonade

Notes:

Island Man: Cassiopeia project

Snare&racket: look for future comments

TD: hybrids

jgnat: videos pg. 1 and 2. Burgess shale creatures. What creative day?

Amelia Ashton: axolotls

Bohm: "animal name fossil record" google search. (find funny symbol on your keyboard)

Villagegirl: Hubble space photos. "none of anything I ever read in Science made me doubt the existence of God". Very cool. "Evolution male invention to be on top". Funny. Do not look into this further LOL

Heaven: Lewis Black. What can I say? Shake head with a smile on your face.

Gypsy Sam: PBS site

AnnOMaley: blind watchmaker

DuvanMuvan: "Beneficial mutations"

Metatron: Article on Lamarck

Redvip2000: Fossils show mutations...cause change...gradually over long periods of time"

Cofty: Look up alleles, gene pool, genotype, phenotype, speciation

check back to see if you missed anything. Research all the above and then pick out a book.

84

Want to know why people accept evolution ?

by snare&racket in

jw
friends

do you have questions about or want to understand evolution?

it is a difficult concept to communicate and so if it is not explained well , it is understandable that we would dismiss it.. i sincerely want to talk with people who want to learn more or see what all the fuss is about.

we are all learning and increasing our knowledge all the time and it is good to go over facts with critical eye.. evolution we can discuss, looking at the foundational facts and evidence, one at a time for you to go and check, agree or disagree with and return.. no pressure to accept it, you can decide for yourself, also no mocking etc of what you have to say.. .

Make Lemonade

Kaik: You said, "I would say the best way to observe evolution is to go the nature. Touring swamps, national parks, state and national forests, and wild life refuge".

That is a tough assignment, but I accept. LOL. That is great advice. I really like that sort of thing. Slowly I have been gathering information on this subject. Your comments have been very helpful. I am in a much better position to narrow down books that will help me. I am very optimistic and excited to be exploring this subject. Being able to ask questions and then to receive so much information is wonderful.

Disp. Hero: You are like many witnesses I have talked to recently about this subject. On the whole I cannot find a clear united belief. This observation is supported by the fact that the Wt. publications are themselves making contradictory statements. You can go back to the Photo Drama and see a slide depicting 7 7,000 year creative days. The subject of the destruction of Jurusalem being destroyed in 607 is anchored to 539 BCE. 1975 is still 6,000 years from Adam's creation. No wonder you and I are sorting thru this maze of fuzzy logic. When the Wt. writters fail to identify teachings that have proved to be false, it only makes the search for answers more difficult. When you see this pattern being repeated in several areas, it helps your mind to be free to look deeper. You and I both are benefiting from all this information.

Cofty: Even though you are "over my head" in your understanding of this subject, I benefit from being introduced to thoughts that I can look into. Thanks

Donny: Have not finished viewing the videos. So far they are helpful.

84

Want to know why people accept evolution ?

by snare&racket in

jw
friends

do you have questions about or want to understand evolution?

it is a difficult concept to communicate and so if it is not explained well , it is understandable that we would dismiss it.. i sincerely want to talk with people who want to learn more or see what all the fuss is about.

we are all learning and increasing our knowledge all the time and it is good to go over facts with critical eye.. evolution we can discuss, looking at the foundational facts and evidence, one at a time for you to go and check, agree or disagree with and return.. no pressure to accept it, you can decide for yourself, also no mocking etc of what you have to say.. .

Make Lemonade

Seems you all have been having a great time. I like that.

Many things on this thread are really thought provoking. The idea of commonality. All living things have the same origen. Here is what has come up in my thoughts. It appears what is being discussed is similar to what Michael Crichton wrote about in his book Jurassic Park. The scientists used frog DNA to repair the DNA of a dinosaur. They got the DNA from a mosquito trapped in amber. That was science fiction, but it seems to me that being able to splice a part of a frog's DNA into a damaged dinosaur's DNA is related to commonality.

Also, the commonality of mathmatics in living things. Fibonacci Numbers, Golden Ratio, and Fractal Geometry would also show a commonality.

Am I on the right track?

84

Want to know why people accept evolution ?

by snare&racket in

jw
friends

do you have questions about or want to understand evolution?

it is a difficult concept to communicate and so if it is not explained well , it is understandable that we would dismiss it.. i sincerely want to talk with people who want to learn more or see what all the fuss is about.

we are all learning and increasing our knowledge all the time and it is good to go over facts with critical eye.. evolution we can discuss, looking at the foundational facts and evidence, one at a time for you to go and check, agree or disagree with and return.. no pressure to accept it, you can decide for yourself, also no mocking etc of what you have to say.. .

Make Lemonade

Kaik: Visited Yosemite and have seen the Sequoias. WWW.nps.gov./yose/naturescience/sequoia-research.htm.

Dendrology, Ice cores, sediment layers. These are just words and concepts to me now. I would enjoy looking into this by reading more.

I can see in the Watchtower publications contradictions about dates in relationship to the flood and tower of Babel. Flood is 2370 BCE and Pyramid dates to 2500. That means that the flood did not destroy the Pyramid. It also means that Egyptian civilization existed before the flood. I have a file started to save these points. Lack of knowledge is a prison of sorts. When you see inconsistencies in teachings of the Wt. you want to know more.

You said "we can reassemble by the tree ring the years and climate going way back millions of years". That is something that I want to "sink my teeth into". What would you recomend as a good book on this subject?

I am supposed to be sleeping now. Woke up and decided to see if anyone had more to say. Glad I checked and found your comment. Thanks.

I will be back in about 16 hours or so. Going back to bed to catch a little more sleep. Then off to work.

84

Want to know why people accept evolution ?

by snare&racket in

jw
friends

do you have questions about or want to understand evolution?

it is a difficult concept to communicate and so if it is not explained well , it is understandable that we would dismiss it.. i sincerely want to talk with people who want to learn more or see what all the fuss is about.

we are all learning and increasing our knowledge all the time and it is good to go over facts with critical eye.. evolution we can discuss, looking at the foundational facts and evidence, one at a time for you to go and check, agree or disagree with and return.. no pressure to accept it, you can decide for yourself, also no mocking etc of what you have to say.. .

Make Lemonade

Thanks, Snare & a Racket, Congratulations on your new job!

Kaik I just learned that "origin of life" and "evolution" are two different discussions. I am also seeing that my knowledge of evolution goes back to the "Did Man Get Here by Evolution or Creation" book. That puts me way behind in the current knowledge/thinking of science.

Also, between 1965 & 1987, I was taught (by the WT) and believed that each "creative day" was 7,000 years long. Now, in the March and January 2014 Awake magazines, I can see a recognizable pattern developing when the WT wants to change a teaching. When the WT changes a viewpoint (like the 7,000 year creative day) they never come out and say "we were wrong about this," they simply STOP talking about it, and slowly introduce changes, using vague desciptions (using "thousands of years" to allow people to think it could be 50 or 100,000 years) as if no one will notice.

In the Awake magazines, 'young earth creationists', who believe in 24 hour creative days, become an easy target for criticism by the Awake magazines. Most readers are unaware of the reality that JW's are a version of these 'young earth creationists' themselves. Instead of 24 hour creative days, they taught, and believed in, 7,000 year creative days. So, I am stuck needing information and facts that will allow me to have a conviction that the '7,000 year creative days' are either fact or fiction.

I am interested in gardening and birds, but I am reallly interested in proof that life is older than 30,000 years. I do appreciate the common conclusion that life is millions of years old, I just have a need for evidence. Evidence that will help me explain to myself, and others, how to have confidence in the length of time that life has existed on earth.

thanks for being patient with me

84

Want to know why people accept evolution ?

by snare&racket in

jw
friends

do you have questions about or want to understand evolution?

it is a difficult concept to communicate and so if it is not explained well , it is understandable that we would dismiss it.. i sincerely want to talk with people who want to learn more or see what all the fuss is about.

we are all learning and increasing our knowledge all the time and it is good to go over facts with critical eye.. evolution we can discuss, looking at the foundational facts and evidence, one at a time for you to go and check, agree or disagree with and return.. no pressure to accept it, you can decide for yourself, also no mocking etc of what you have to say.. .

Make Lemonade

Now you all have provided some great information. Although I would not introduce Lewis Black to some of the faithful I know. LOL. He is just brutal. I did like the part about reaching in his pocket and pulling out a fossil. Very funny and thought provoking.

The video about evolution and defining the argument is excellent. I will be absorbing that information for some time to come.

Cofty somewhere gave a link about the reliability of dating (not men and women). That was more my speed. It also came from a "believer". Accepting that life is older than 30,000 to 50,000 years is a real obstacle in my mind.

I believe this statement: "If you ask a question you can appear to be a fool for 5 miniutes, If you never ask a question you can be a fool for life".

I will trade being a fool for a brief period if I can avoid being a fool for life.

Great information. Thanks

Can someone recomend a book on evolution, for a man who did not attend college. Has only basic math skills. I tried to read a book that used math formulas that completely lost me. Does not mean I did not get out of it what I wanted. Just have to say that the math was way over my head.